Date: 4/20/26 9:27 am From: David Sibley <sibleyguides...> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Lark/goose
It's difficult to find anything definitive to separate American and Eurasian Horned Larks, but this one shows several things suggestive of Eurasian (Shore Lark, flava), My list of weak features from stronger to very weak: short and stout bill with lower profile of lower mandible curving up to tip, rufous on nape and flanks not contrasting much with back, yellow suffusion throughout the head, weak dark line behind eye, not as much black below eye, dusky border on lower rear auriculars curving forward to meet dark mask.
I see no reason to suspect that it's a Nearctic vagrant, but interested to hear other opinions on any of this.
David Sibley
Deerfield, MA
> On Apr 20, 2026, at 1:07 AM, <gusvanvliet...> <gusvanvliet...> wrote:
>
> https://austinmorley.blogspot.com/2026/03/15022026-mow-cop-cheshire-staffordshire.html >
> https://saturdaycatbird.blogspot.com/2026/03/shorelark-on-gritstone-trail-mow-cop.html >
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/britishbirdwatching/posts/1918325572889139/ >
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "phil barnett" <000006b92a0d9855-dmarc-request...>
> To: <BIRDWG01...>
> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 8:13:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Lark/goose
>
> The shorelark photos can be found on rare bird alert or birdguides websites (mow cop, staffordshire this year) and the goose on the oxfordshire birds and wildlife facebook group.
> On a separate point female cinnamon teal and garganey look very similar!
> On Monday, April 20, 2026 at 04:44:50 AM GMT+1, Robert O'Brien <00001bb3f9cc1f1f-dmarc-request...> wrote:
>
> Just a general FYI. ID Frontiers does not accept attached images. The
> message will go through, but no message is attached. This makes it very
> difficult to determine what the subject bird is. For instance, a
> yellow-faced Shore Lark can be very hard to decipher or to find on the net,
> other than a dedicated search.. If there are images of same on eBird, just
> give the eBird url.
>
> Free web pages such as Flickr will accept images, requiring a free account,
> and that url can then be cited. I've had such an account for several
> decades with no problems whatsoever. I rarely even use it, except in this
> situation.
>
> Bob OBrien Portland OR
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2026 at 7:15 PM phil barnett <
> <000006b92a0d9855-dmarc-request...> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> nice to see the group is still going. Firstly this 'shorelark'
>> photographed in the uk looks yellow around the face (other photos on the
>> net). Secondly is it me or is this goose a greater blue morph snow goose,
>> still on otmoor uk the other day (along with an american golden plover
>> which turned up on saturday).
>> Phil
>>
>> Shorelark by David Talbot
>>
>> Facebook
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Date: 4/20/26 8:21 am From: Amar Ayyash <amarayyash...> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
Ah, Nelson's Gull rears its ugly head again!
It's true that Henshaw (1884) used the name to denote a species, and Dwight
(1925) used it for Vega and Glaucous hybrids. I once thought it was a big
deal to make some distinction (and perhaps it is more than ever with the
Herring Gull split). Viking Gull is the most visible and well-known of the
Glaucous/Herring hybrids, and I'm glad that one has a catchy name if only
to make some distinction.
It appears Jehl (1987) normalized the use of Nelson's Gull for American
Herring x Glaucous hybrids, which is now common practice across North
America. For what it's worth, I explain this on pp.454-458 in The Gull
Guide, and also use Nelson's Gull for smithsonianus x hyperboreus.
Respectfully,
Amar Ayyash
On Mon, Apr 20, 2026 at 9:04 AM Nick Lethaby <nlethaby...> wrote:
> Based on my experience in the 90s birding in NE Asia and the SF Bay Area, I
> would say that Nelson's Gulls are commoner in the W USA than in NE Asia.
>
> Nick Lethaby
> Goleta, CA
>
> <nlethaby...>
> Mobile: 805 284 6200
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2026, 4:34 AM <chucao...> wrote:
>
> > Bob
> >
> > There are a bunch of Vega x Glaucous photos on eBird, including some I
> > have seen in Japan. They are not common though, so the few photos may be
> > partly an issue of the hybrid itself not being all that common?
> >
> > https://media.ebird.org/catalog?birdOnly=true&taxonCode=x01132 > >
> > Alvaro
> >
> > Alvaro Jaramillo
> > <alvaro...>
> > www.alvarosadventures.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> > <BIRDWG01...> On Behalf Of Robert O'Brien
> > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 11:33 PM
> > To: <BIRDWG01...>
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
> >
> > Yep, and thus Nelson's Gull does not appear in the Macaulay Bird Library.
> > GlaucousXHerring has lots of photos though
> > https://search.macaulaylibrary.org/catalog?taxonCode=x01131 > >
> > As for VegaX,.... there are very few photos and 'they' are punting on
> what
> > they are. The listing is American Herring/Vega/European Herring x
> Glaucous
> > Gull (hybrid) - Larus
> > https://search.macaulaylibrary.org/catalog?taxonCode=nelgul > >
> > If you select a photo, then the original checklist will be available.
> >
> > Bob OBrien Portland OR
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 19, 2026 at 7:27 PM <chucao...> wrote:
> >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > Amar suggested this some years back. But in the end it really does
> > > not matter in the usage of the term "Nelson's Gull" as it is not a
> valid
> > taxon.
> > > It does not need to follow any specific rules of taxonomy or naming.
> > > So if we have taken Nelson's Gull to mean American Herring x Glaucous,
> > > then we should keep using that even if the first Nelson's Gull might
> > > have been something else.
> > >
> > > Alvaro
> > >
> > > Alvaro Jaramillo
> > > <alvaro...>
> > > www.alvarosadventures.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> > > <BIRDWG01...> On Behalf Of <greatgrayowl...>
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 6:12 PM
> > > To: <BIRDWG01...>
> > > Subject: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
> > >
> > > Hi all:
> > > It suddenly came to me when doing some review work that, with the
> > > recent taxonomic changes in what we used to call Herring Gull (sensu
> > > largo), the moniker "Nelson's Gull" is possibly not correctly
> > > associated with Glaucous Gull x American Herring Gull. Given that the
> > > type specimen was collected in June at "St. Michael's" (now St.
> > > Michael) on the western shore of Alaska due E of St. Lawrence Island,
> > > might this hybrid be referable to Glaucous x Vega? I don't know where
> > > the specimen is currently housed (it was originally deposited in the
> > > US Nat'l Mus.; 97253; Henshaw 1884), but it might be quite useful for
> > > someone to track that thing down. Perhaps that task has already been
> > completed. If so, I'd love to know the result.
> > > Henshaw, H. W. 1884. On a New Gull from Alaska. The Auk 1 (3):250-252.
> > > (On a New Gull from Alaska) Tony Tony LeukeringDenver, COeBird blog
> > > eBird commentaryPhotos
> > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html > > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html > > >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html > >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html > >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
Date: 4/20/26 7:05 am From: Nick Lethaby <nlethaby...> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
Based on my experience in the 90s birding in NE Asia and the SF Bay Area, I
would say that Nelson's Gulls are commoner in the W USA than in NE Asia.
Nick Lethaby
Goleta, CA
<nlethaby...>
Mobile: 805 284 6200
On Mon, Apr 20, 2026, 4:34 AM <chucao...> wrote:
> Bob
>
> There are a bunch of Vega x Glaucous photos on eBird, including some I
> have seen in Japan. They are not common though, so the few photos may be
> partly an issue of the hybrid itself not being all that common?
>
> https://media.ebird.org/catalog?birdOnly=true&taxonCode=x01132 >
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> <alvaro...>
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> <BIRDWG01...> On Behalf Of Robert O'Brien
> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 11:33 PM
> To: <BIRDWG01...>
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
>
> Yep, and thus Nelson's Gull does not appear in the Macaulay Bird Library.
> GlaucousXHerring has lots of photos though
> https://search.macaulaylibrary.org/catalog?taxonCode=x01131 >
> As for VegaX,.... there are very few photos and 'they' are punting on what
> they are. The listing is American Herring/Vega/European Herring x Glaucous
> Gull (hybrid) - Larus
> https://search.macaulaylibrary.org/catalog?taxonCode=nelgul >
> If you select a photo, then the original checklist will be available.
>
> Bob OBrien Portland OR
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2026 at 7:27 PM <chucao...> wrote:
>
> > Tony
> >
> > Amar suggested this some years back. But in the end it really does
> > not matter in the usage of the term "Nelson's Gull" as it is not a valid
> taxon.
> > It does not need to follow any specific rules of taxonomy or naming.
> > So if we have taken Nelson's Gull to mean American Herring x Glaucous,
> > then we should keep using that even if the first Nelson's Gull might
> > have been something else.
> >
> > Alvaro
> >
> > Alvaro Jaramillo
> > <alvaro...>
> > www.alvarosadventures.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> > <BIRDWG01...> On Behalf Of <greatgrayowl...>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 6:12 PM
> > To: <BIRDWG01...>
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
> >
> > Hi all:
> > It suddenly came to me when doing some review work that, with the
> > recent taxonomic changes in what we used to call Herring Gull (sensu
> > largo), the moniker "Nelson's Gull" is possibly not correctly
> > associated with Glaucous Gull x American Herring Gull. Given that the
> > type specimen was collected in June at "St. Michael's" (now St.
> > Michael) on the western shore of Alaska due E of St. Lawrence Island,
> > might this hybrid be referable to Glaucous x Vega? I don't know where
> > the specimen is currently housed (it was originally deposited in the
> > US Nat'l Mus.; 97253; Henshaw 1884), but it might be quite useful for
> > someone to track that thing down. Perhaps that task has already been
> completed. If so, I'd love to know the result.
> > Henshaw, H. W. 1884. On a New Gull from Alaska. The Auk 1 (3):250-252.
> > (On a New Gull from Alaska) Tony Tony LeukeringDenver, COeBird blog
> > eBird commentaryPhotos
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html > >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html > >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
Date: 4/20/26 4:44 am From: <chucao...> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
Bob
There are a bunch of Vega x Glaucous photos on eBird, including some I have seen in Japan. They are not common though, so the few photos may be partly an issue of the hybrid itself not being all that common?
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <BIRDWG01...> On Behalf Of Robert O'Brien
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 11:33 PM
To: <BIRDWG01...>
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
If you select a photo, then the original checklist will be available.
Bob OBrien Portland OR
On Sun, Apr 19, 2026 at 7:27 PM <chucao...> wrote:
> Tony
>
> Amar suggested this some years back. But in the end it really does
> not matter in the usage of the term "Nelson's Gull" as it is not a valid taxon.
> It does not need to follow any specific rules of taxonomy or naming.
> So if we have taken Nelson's Gull to mean American Herring x Glaucous,
> then we should keep using that even if the first Nelson's Gull might
> have been something else.
>
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> <alvaro...>
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> <BIRDWG01...> On Behalf Of <greatgrayowl...>
> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 6:12 PM
> To: <BIRDWG01...>
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
>
> Hi all:
> It suddenly came to me when doing some review work that, with the
> recent taxonomic changes in what we used to call Herring Gull (sensu
> largo), the moniker "Nelson's Gull" is possibly not correctly
> associated with Glaucous Gull x American Herring Gull. Given that the
> type specimen was collected in June at "St. Michael's" (now St.
> Michael) on the western shore of Alaska due E of St. Lawrence Island,
> might this hybrid be referable to Glaucous x Vega? I don't know where
> the specimen is currently housed (it was originally deposited in the
> US Nat'l Mus.; 97253; Henshaw 1884), but it might be quite useful for
> someone to track that thing down. Perhaps that task has already been completed. If so, I'd love to know the result.
> Henshaw, H. W. 1884. On a New Gull from Alaska. The Auk 1 (3):250-252.
> (On a New Gull from Alaska) Tony Tony LeukeringDenver, COeBird blog
> eBird commentaryPhotos
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
----- Original Message -----
From: "phil barnett" <000006b92a0d9855-dmarc-request...>
To: <BIRDWG01...>
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 8:13:01 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Lark/goose
The shorelark photos can be found on rare bird alert or birdguides websites (mow cop, staffordshire this year) and the goose on the oxfordshire birds and wildlife facebook group.
On a separate point female cinnamon teal and garganey look very similar!
On Monday, April 20, 2026 at 04:44:50 AM GMT+1, Robert O'Brien <00001bb3f9cc1f1f-dmarc-request...> wrote:
Just a general FYI. ID Frontiers does not accept attached images. The
message will go through, but no message is attached. This makes it very
difficult to determine what the subject bird is. For instance, a
yellow-faced Shore Lark can be very hard to decipher or to find on the net,
other than a dedicated search.. If there are images of same on eBird, just
give the eBird url.
Free web pages such as Flickr will accept images, requiring a free account,
and that url can then be cited. I've had such an account for several
decades with no problems whatsoever. I rarely even use it, except in this
situation.
Bob OBrien Portland OR
On Sun, Apr 19, 2026 at 7:15 PM phil barnett <
<000006b92a0d9855-dmarc-request...> wrote:
> Hi,
> nice to see the group is still going. Firstly this 'shorelark'
> photographed in the uk looks yellow around the face (other photos on the
> net). Secondly is it me or is this goose a greater blue morph snow goose,
> still on otmoor uk the other day (along with an american golden plover
> which turned up on saturday).
> Phil
>
> Shorelark by David Talbot
>
> Facebook
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
The shorelark photos can be found on rare bird alert or birdguides websites (mow cop, staffordshire this year) and the goose on the oxfordshire birds and wildlife facebook group.
On a separate point female cinnamon teal and garganey look very similar!
On Monday, April 20, 2026 at 04:44:50 AM GMT+1, Robert O'Brien <00001bb3f9cc1f1f-dmarc-request...> wrote:
Just a general FYI. ID Frontiers does not accept attached images. The
message will go through, but no message is attached. This makes it very
difficult to determine what the subject bird is. For instance, a
yellow-faced Shore Lark can be very hard to decipher or to find on the net,
other than a dedicated search.. If there are images of same on eBird, just
give the eBird url.
Free web pages such as Flickr will accept images, requiring a free account,
and that url can then be cited. I've had such an account for several
decades with no problems whatsoever. I rarely even use it, except in this
situation.
Bob OBrien Portland OR
On Sun, Apr 19, 2026 at 7:15 PM phil barnett <
<000006b92a0d9855-dmarc-request...> wrote:
> Hi,
> nice to see the group is still going. Firstly this 'shorelark'
> photographed in the uk looks yellow around the face (other photos on the
> net). Secondly is it me or is this goose a greater blue morph snow goose,
> still on otmoor uk the other day (along with an american golden plover
> which turned up on saturday).
> Phil
>
> Shorelark by David Talbot
>
> Facebook
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
I meant to say, no image will be attached. The message text will go
through.
On Sun, Apr 19, 2026 at 8:43 PM Robert O'Brien <baro...> wrote:
> Just a general FYI. ID Frontiers does not accept attached images. The
> message will go through, but no message is attached. This makes it very
> difficult to determine what the subject bird is. For instance, a
> yellow-faced Shore Lark can be very hard to decipher or to find on the net,
> other than a dedicated search.. If there are images of same on eBird, just
> give the eBird url.
>
> Free web pages such as Flickr will accept images, requiring a free
> account, and that url can then be cited. I've had such an account for
> several decades with no problems whatsoever. I rarely even use it, except
> in this situation.
>
> Bob OBrien Portland OR
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2026 at 7:15 PM phil barnett <
> <000006b92a0d9855-dmarc-request...> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> nice to see the group is still going. Firstly this 'shorelark'
>> photographed in the uk looks yellow around the face (other photos on the
>> net). Secondly is it me or is this goose a greater blue morph snow goose,
>> still on otmoor uk the other day (along with an american golden plover
>> which turned up on saturday).
>> Phil
>>
>> Shorelark by David Talbot
>>
>> Facebook
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >>
>
Just a general FYI. ID Frontiers does not accept attached images. The
message will go through, but no message is attached. This makes it very
difficult to determine what the subject bird is. For instance, a
yellow-faced Shore Lark can be very hard to decipher or to find on the net,
other than a dedicated search.. If there are images of same on eBird, just
give the eBird url.
Free web pages such as Flickr will accept images, requiring a free account,
and that url can then be cited. I've had such an account for several
decades with no problems whatsoever. I rarely even use it, except in this
situation.
Bob OBrien Portland OR
On Sun, Apr 19, 2026 at 7:15 PM phil barnett <
<000006b92a0d9855-dmarc-request...> wrote:
> Hi,
> nice to see the group is still going. Firstly this 'shorelark'
> photographed in the uk looks yellow around the face (other photos on the
> net). Secondly is it me or is this goose a greater blue morph snow goose,
> still on otmoor uk the other day (along with an american golden plover
> which turned up on saturday).
> Phil
>
> Shorelark by David Talbot
>
> Facebook
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
If you select a photo, then the original checklist will be available.
Bob OBrien Portland OR
On Sun, Apr 19, 2026 at 7:27 PM <chucao...> wrote:
> Tony
>
> Amar suggested this some years back. But in the end it really does not
> matter in the usage of the term "Nelson's Gull" as it is not a valid taxon.
> It does not need to follow any specific rules of taxonomy or naming. So if
> we have taken Nelson's Gull to mean American Herring x Glaucous, then we
> should keep using that even if the first Nelson's Gull might have been
> something else.
>
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> <alvaro...>
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> <BIRDWG01...> On Behalf Of <greatgrayowl...>
> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 6:12 PM
> To: <BIRDWG01...>
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
>
> Hi all:
> It suddenly came to me when doing some review work that, with the recent
> taxonomic changes in what we used to call Herring Gull (sensu largo), the
> moniker "Nelson's Gull" is possibly not correctly associated with Glaucous
> Gull x American Herring Gull. Given that the type specimen was collected in
> June at "St. Michael's" (now St. Michael) on the western shore of Alaska
> due E of St. Lawrence Island, might this hybrid be referable to Glaucous x
> Vega? I don't know where the specimen is currently housed (it was
> originally deposited in the US Nat'l Mus.; 97253; Henshaw 1884), but it
> might be quite useful for someone to track that thing down. Perhaps that
> task has already been completed. If so, I'd love to know the result.
> Henshaw, H. W. 1884. On a New Gull from Alaska. The Auk 1 (3):250-252. (On
> a New Gull from Alaska) Tony Tony LeukeringDenver, COeBird blog eBird
> commentaryPhotos
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html >
Amar suggested this some years back. But in the end it really does not matter in the usage of the term "Nelson's Gull" as it is not a valid taxon. It does not need to follow any specific rules of taxonomy or naming. So if we have taken Nelson's Gull to mean American Herring x Glaucous, then we should keep using that even if the first Nelson's Gull might have been something else.
-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <BIRDWG01...> On Behalf Of <greatgrayowl...>
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2026 6:12 PM
To: <BIRDWG01...>
Subject: [BIRDWG01] What, truly, is "Nelson's Gull?"
Hi all:
It suddenly came to me when doing some review work that, with the recent taxonomic changes in what we used to call Herring Gull (sensu largo), the moniker "Nelson's Gull" is possibly not correctly associated with Glaucous Gull x American Herring Gull. Given that the type specimen was collected in June at "St. Michael's" (now St. Michael) on the western shore of Alaska due E of St. Lawrence Island, might this hybrid be referable to Glaucous x Vega? I don't know where the specimen is currently housed (it was originally deposited in the US Nat'l Mus.; 97253; Henshaw 1884), but it might be quite useful for someone to track that thing down. Perhaps that task has already been completed. If so, I'd love to know the result.
Henshaw, H. W. 1884. On a New Gull from Alaska. The Auk 1 (3):250-252. (On a New Gull from Alaska) Tony Tony LeukeringDenver, COeBird blog eBird commentaryPhotos
Hi, nice to see the group is still going. Firstly this 'shorelark' photographed in the uk looks yellow around the face (other photos on the net). Secondly is it me or is this goose a greater blue morph snow goose, still on otmoor uk the other day (along with an american golden plover which turned up on saturday). Phil
Hi all: It suddenly came to me when doing some review work that, with the recent taxonomic changes in what we used to call Herring Gull (sensu largo), the moniker "Nelson's Gull" is possibly not correctly associated with Glaucous Gull x American Herring Gull. Given that the type specimen was collected in June at "St. Michael's" (now St. Michael) on the western shore of Alaska due E of St. Lawrence Island, might this hybrid be referable to Glaucous x Vega? I don't know where the specimen is currently housed (it was originally deposited in the US Nat'l Mus.; 97253; Henshaw 1884), but it might be quite useful for someone to track that thing down. Perhaps that task has already been completed. If so, I'd love to know the result. Henshaw, H. W. 1884. On a New Gull from Alaska. The Auk 1 (3):250-252. (On a New Gull from Alaska) Tony Tony LeukeringDenver, COeBird blog eBird commentaryPhotos
