Date: 2/22/21 2:39 pm
From: Christopher Hill (via carolinabirds Mailing List) <carolinabirds...>
Subject: Re: Whats the story with reporting Egyptian Goose?
Steve, if you had made it through this post without some semblance of a Leggo my EGGO joke I would have been very disappointed. You have barely redeemed the Carolinabirds list for going two days without one.

Chris Hill
Conway, SC

On Feb 22, 2021, at 4:59 PM, Shultz, Steven <carolinabirds...><mailto:<carolinabirds...>> wrote:


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Here’s a handy chart of where exotics are established for ABA “counting” purposes. If you don’t care about ABA rules, read no further.

ABA Area Introduced Species - American Birding Association<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.aba.org*2Faba-area-introduced-species*2F__*3B!!OToaGQ!-z3g6RvAfnGFMB-HqFY_MGoIHRBATSLlHmjgPS5Eyft10j2xW2jOdX7Jzk-MySz_Do4*24&data=04*7C01*7Cchill*40coastal.edu*7Cf124e5a8f71c4c5a69bc08d8d77d329e*7Cbf1f856b8ef84e52be9387d3c3622797*7C0*7C0*7C637496280021250022*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=0q7vWLxP1w5Zd7ksBhbm70xEGEwxHRtLXS9uhT76KxQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!OToaGQ!98W0lUYOxU6JWh18Q9KbEdXm3MduoFm6cbPMmL1kA3Vy6hYGl6R1scDzUTkon-UMgSk$ >

As can be seen, EGGO is the checklist, but only for populations in the 3 areas noted. Individuals outside these areas are not considered established by the ABA checklist committee. (And one bird on a pond is not likely to kick off an established breeding population anytime soon.)

The NC bird, as well as other infamous and well-known pond decorations, continue to be listed on eBird alerts. This is sort of annoying since the usage of those reports is to learn about rare or unusual wild birds. The goose is neither. But until and unless the filters for such things are changed, we will continue to have to mentally ignore them, and the Whooper Swan in Florida, etc. Or until such a time as people stop eEbirding them (would be nice, not likely to happen).

Please don’t take this as telling folks what to do. eBird the stuff at the zoo if you like. It’s your list and only your list. But for “players” playing by the rules for big years, county lists, and the like, as Harry notes, these non-established critters do not “count”.

Anecdote: Drove into the neighborhood once, saw an EGGO sitting on the neighbors roof. It soon flew away. Neat said I. Someone lost an EGGO and I saw it!

Steve Shultz
EGGO-Free Apex, NC

From: <carolinabirds-request...><mailto:<carolinabirds-request...> <carolinabirds-request...><mailto:<carolinabirds-request...>> On Behalf Of Wayne Hoffman
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 4:39 PM
To: Harry LeGrand <hlegrandjr...><mailto:<hlegrandjr...>>
Cc: Dwayne Martin <redxbill...><mailto:<redxbill...>>; Mary Erickson <tworstaggering...><mailto:<tworstaggering...>>; carolinabirds <carolinabirds...><mailto:<carolinabirds...>>
Subject: Re: Whats the story with reporting Egyptian Goose?ju's

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Hi, Harry -

Just a little more on the status of Egyptian Geese elsewhere in the US.

1. The biggest and best-established population may be in Texas. In Nov. 2018 I birded across Texas on Interstate 10, and found them in Kerrville and multiple spots around San Antonio, mainly in riverside parks and on irrigated lawns. In San Antonio some were mixed in with the hordes of Black-bellied Whistling Ducks along the river, near the zoo.

2. Back in the 1970s, free-flying Egyptian Geese from a private drive-thru zoo began breeding in the Umpqua Valley in SW Oregon. They were removed by Oregon game officials for reasons similar to those justifying removing Mute Swans from DelMarVa.

< div>3. I lived in Tampa Fl. from 1977-1984, and free-flying Egyptian Geese were present in multiple local parks and golf courses, and were from Busch Gardens, where pinioned birds were breeding, but their offspring were not all pinioned. I found a nest with eggs on a small dredge-spoil island in the intercoastal waterway near St. Petersburg. I imagine there have been other sources in Florida since then, probably including one or more of the resorts in the Orlando area.

Wayne Hoffman
Wilmington



________________________________
From: "carolinabirds" <carolinabirds...><mailto:<carolinabirds...>>
To: "Dwayne Martin" <redxbill...><mailto:<redxbill...>>
Cc: "Mary Erickson" <tworstaggering...><mailto:<tworstaggering...>>, "carolinabirds" <carolinabirds...><mailto:<carolinabirds...>>
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 9:12:27 AM
Subject: Re: Whats the story with reporting Egyptian Goose?

To add a few things to what Dwayne said -- as I wanted to hear from one of the NC eBird review staff first (and he review western NC reports) -- Egyptian Goose is NOT on the NC state bird list, in any category:

Birds of North Carolina (carolinabirdclub.org)<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.carolinabirdclub.org*2Fbrc*2Fchecklist_of_North_Carolina_birds.html__*3B!!OToaGQ!6jEZ9Rcblaq5xFXgrkKqxKpdo78g-YJdeSojhLeLNWE6kq-4i6YBcO1WgmmAKzCzYc8*24&data=04*7C01*7Cchill*40coastal.edu*7Cf124e5a8f71c4c5a69bc08d8d77d329e*7Cbf1f856b8ef84e52be9387d3c3622797*7C0*7C0*7C637496280021250022*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=UgLb*2BWrCIS2pftBheWZwkt*2FrkOLBLI8zxmmBYDaJ3qM*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!OToaGQ!98W0lUYOxU6JWh18Q9KbEdXm3MduoFm6cbPMmL1kA3Vy6hYGl6R1scDzUTkoCW4aBYI$ >

Thus, the species cannot be counted on a Big Year list -- sorry, Steve, but that knocks your 2020 Big Year back from 359 to 358 -- still way ahead of any other such list.

Now, looking at the bottom of that list, Definitive, Point 5:

1. A species or recognized subspecies from a non-native, feral or exotic population that is self-sustaining or expanding for a period of 10 or more years.

It can be argued that the NC Bird Records Committee can, if it chooses to do so, vote on a species like Egyptian Goose, if it has a self-sustaining population at Lake Julian for a period of 10 or more years -- and add it to the state list if it receives enough votes to add. However, that population is not expanding, and that may be a reason also that it has not been brought up for a vote for the NC list. Yes, this goose species can be easily seen at that lake, and has been for a good handful of years. But, the same can certainly be said for some local populations of Muscovy Ducks, Greylag Geese, and a few other waterfowl -- including some inland populations of Mute Swans that stay at one lake.

I am a non-voting member of the NC BRC, but have been in the past and was a Chair in the past. I don't know how others would vote on Egyptian Goose or a similar feral waterfowl species to add to the state list, but I do know how I would vo te, and that is "no". We could add all kinds of additional species that way to the list. I personally would want to see a population expand to other lakes before I cast a yes vote.

Several more points -- Egyptian Goose IS on the ABA Checklist; I just checked the website and list. However, that would apply ONLY to whichever part of whichever state it is considered countable -- probably locally in parts of FL or CA. But, that does not mean it is countable anywhere in the US and Canada where seen. Sadly, the checklist doesn't say WHERE in the region it is countable, though maybe a detailed list somewhere has this important information.

Lastly, addressing the eBird search map, to which Guy refers -- yes, I see the purple rectangles for Egyptian Goose for several places in eastern TN and northern GA, and not for NC. So, I support the NC decision to not accept the species, as it is not on the NC state list; m aybe the species IS listed on the TN and GA state lists -- I don't know. But -- it would be nice to somehow make sure those many checklists with Egyptian Goose on them from Lake Julian, still be available over time -- in case such potentially valuable data are not completely erased.

Harry LeGrand
Raleigh



On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 6:35 AM Dwayne Martin <carolinabirds...><mailto:<carolinabirds...>> wrote:
eBird has a set of guidelines for reviewers about where exotics should and should not be validated. At this time, Egyptian Goose is on the no validate list for NC. eBird will be coming out will a new way of dealing with exotics on l ists soon hopefully.

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 6:27 AM Mary Erickson <carolinabirds...><mailto:<carolinabirds...>> wrote:
I often see them in my daily NC needs alert. Buncombe Co, Lake Julian.
Mary, Hillsborough


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On Sunday, February 21, 2021, 8:38 PM, <badgerboy...><mailto:<badgerboy...> wrote:

Just curious, I have NOT seen one in NC or SC, but I noticed that ebird
reports of them in NC don't seem to show up on ebird output, but they do
show up in ebird public output just west of here in Tennessee, and in
Georgia. Is this a decision, random chance, or is th ere some difference
between the sightings that I don't know about.

{{{BTW, I DID a quick web search and found the ABA article from 2014 so
please don't recommend that--it did not seem to help.}}}

Thanks, Guy McGrane, Boone NC


--
Dwayne
*************
Dwayne Martin
Hickory, NC
<redxbill...><mailto:<redxbill...>


 
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