Date: 12/31/20 4:32 pm
From: Mary Wise <auntyem...>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: End thread!! Re: [birders] Orion Magazine | 9 Rules for the Woke Birdwatcher
No. When I say end thread, I mean end thread, not that each person gets to
throw in one last shot.

PLEASE. STOP. NOW.

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 7:13 PM Beverly Wolf <Bev_Wolf...> wrote:

> Hear! Hear! to both Mary and Allen! Happy New Year and Happy birding one
> and all. My final words.
>
>
>
> Bev
>
>
>
> *From:* Mary Wise <auntyem...>
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 31, 2020 6:57 PM
> *To:* Allen Chartier <amazilia3...>
> *Cc:* birders <birders...>
> *Subject:* ADMIN: End thread!! Re: [birders] Orion Magazine | 9 Rules for
> the Woke Birdwatcher
>
>
>
> Enough already!
>
>
>
> As I said several messages ago in this thread, I feel that the original
> post was within the boundaries of acceptable posts as it related to birders
> and being inclusive to new birders. Since I am the administrator who
> reluctantly agreed to herd this particular group of cats, I get the final
> say. If you really can't deal with hitting the delete key, then
> unsubscribe.
>
>
>
> Mary
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 10:01 AM Allen Chartier <amazilia3...>
> wrote:
>
> Dr. Lanham's article was hopeful, uplifting, and poetic for sure. It might
> give some a sense that everything is OK, and that there isn't anything more
> to do. But very clearly, his 9 points is a "to do" list. I hope that during
> 2021 we all think about what we can do to increase the number and diversity
> of birders in Michigan. Volunteers I've had help me with bird banding over
> the years have been (and are) African American, LatinX, East Asian, South
> Asian, LGBTQ, men, women, young, and old. Some are seasoned birders, but
> more importantly many are budding birders. The diversity, interest, and
> opportunity is out there. Trust me.
>
>
>
> Watching a flock of a single species, like Snow Buntings, wheel and swirl
> over a wintery field is certainly inspiring. But equally inspiring, if you
> have had the privileges that I have, is to watch diverse mixed species
> feeding flocks in the Andes, Amazon, or Himalayas, with 30-50 or more
> colorful species, often thanks to local birding guides of color. I think we
> all understand the excitement of diversity. Let's not ignore the human
> aspect. Maybe do as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (and others) suggest: Make a friend
> today who does not look like you today.
>
>
>
> Whatever you do in 2021, I wish you the greatest success. And it seems
> that an old adage applies as always: Lead, Follow, or get out of the way. I
> plan to do a little bit of each, as appropriate.
>
>
>
> Happy New Year everyone!
>
>
>
> Allen T. Chartier
>
> Inkster, Michigan
>
> Email: <amazilia3...>
>
> Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mihummingbirdguy/collections/
>
> Website/Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:55 PM Linda Berauer <lberauer...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Timothy, Juliet, Allen, and Marta, for your courage in speaking
> up, and all the others who expressed appreciation for April's link to
> Drew's article. The mission of "culturing and maintaining interest in
> birding in Michigan" is a human endeavor. To pretend that it's only about
> the birds and not the humans who care about them and their habitat, watch
> them, and count them is disingenuous. If we truly care about birds and the
> habitat they need to survive, we need as many humans as possible to join us
> in that endeavor and feel welcome and comfortable doing so.
>
>
>
> I truly hope this list isn't only about numbers and locations and
> checklists. If it is, the numbers will continue to dwindle and the
> checklists will soon be barren.
>
>
>
> I respect the right of Patrick and those who agree with him to express
> their opinion. I simply hope that they will take out their "feel" guide and
> consider the opinions of Drew and those who expressed appreciation of his
> article. Are you really advocating to sticking to "just birds," or is there
> something else that bothers you about Drew's article? I read factual
> statements in his piece, expressed in the language of poetry. What is it
> about those facts that bothers you? The fact that he points to the fact
> that many birds are named after slave owners or white supremacists? And
> that some people would prefer more descriptive names? Why is that so
> bothersome that discussion of it should be squashed?
>
>
>
> We should probably end this discussion, but I hope that everyone who
> participated or watched on the sidelines will think deeply about the issues
> raised. Those issues are important to us as humans, and yes, to the birds,
> whose continued existence is unfortunately at the mercy of the decisions we
> humans make now - the decisions we make as to how we live to together as a
> society, how we use our resources, and whether we preserve the land.
> Driving to locations to catch a glimpse of the rare species, counting them,
> checking them off on our lists is not going to save them. We need every
> human possible to care about them. And posts that promote that is
> absolutely what we should be about.
>
>
>
> Linda Berauer
>
> Ann Arbor
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020, 9:49 PM Timothy McKay <tamckay...> wrote:
>
> I’ve been on this list for 15-20 years and completely agree with Juliet’s
> interpretation. Dr. Lanham’s piece is clearly birders content. If you can’t
> see that, perhaps you should remember that birding involves both birds AND
> people, with all of our societal issues. I’d encourage you all to read his
> book “The Home Place”.
>
>
>
> Happy New Year to you all,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 9:42 PM Juliet Berger <juliet.berger...>
> wrote:
>
> The original poster's link was and is directly about birds and birding
> culture, and as such is absolutely the purview of this group. The author,
> Drew Lanham, is a celebrated ornithology professor at Clemson, and the
> piece is about birding. To object to a discussion of ways to make all
> birders feel welcome in our community, is to disenfranchise those folks who
> don't feel welcomed in our birding community.
>
> Welcoming everyone isn't so hard, is it? How/why is it offensive to
> discuss birding culture? It is part of our list's mission, and more
> important than many bird related topics that have not generated controversy
> on this list.
>
> I'm afraid that birders are subject to the same racism and prejudice that
> all of us succumb to, unconsciously or consciously. To deny that race in
> birding a topic for discussion on a birders group, is to accept that we are
> a racist group and that we like it that way. We don't like it that way.
>
> Juliet Berger
>
> Washtenaw Audubon
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 8:19 PM Allen Chartier <amazilia3...>
> wrote:
>
> Marta,
>
>
>
> Thank you for finding the words that I have had difficulty with today. I
> share your distress and some of your confusion. The description of the
> BIRDERS list, visible to everyone who subscribes, is as follows:
>
>
>
> BIRDERS provides a forum for those interested in birding in Michigan. It
> contributes importantly to the goal of culturing and maintaining interest
> in birding in Michigan and appreciation of Michigan’s natural wonders.
>
>
>
> And, the LIStOWNER has allowed that 6-word positing with a link to be
> posted, and allowed it to be discussed.
>
>
>
> Carping that the list "rules" don't allow this discussion is clearly
> delusional. It also fails to put forth a single argument about an
> important question; why aren't there more birders of color? "Culturing and
> maintaining interest in birding..." means recruiting more birders not only
> to enrich our own experiences, but to increase the strength of our
> alliances in fighting to conserve birds and address climate instability.
>
>
>
> Sadly, it is not a mystery to me why there aren't more birders of color,
> or why the few that are among us prefer to bird alone. It distresses me
> that if I post just one similar thing in the future, despite the list
> discussing "only birds" for 363 days a year, I would get the same shocking
> and unwelcoming responses as I've seen here, and that is very sad and
> counterproductive to the BIRDERS list, and to birding as a whole.
>
>
>
> Allen T. Chartier
>
> Inkster, Michigan
>
> Email: <amazilia3...>
>
> Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mihummingbirdguy/collections/
>
> Website/Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:40 PM Marta Manildi <mamanildi...> wrote:
>
> The original post was 6 words long and a link to something written by a
> birder and nature lover. The strong responses against the post and the
> repeated characterization of it as being off-topic, unrelated to birding,
> are confusing and distressing to me. Is it because the link was to a
> literary/poetic expression of one man’s experience? What line did it
> cross? Or was it the further responses saying in effect “I enjoyed that”,
> or “thank you”, that crossed some listserve boundary?
>
> Marta
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2020, at 6:09 PM, pat j <p40warhawk2002...> wrote:
>
> 
>
> When we send an email to this list server, we send it to
> <birders...>, not <My_Agenda...>! I agree with
> Bill, I think we need to get back to bird related subjects on this list
> server and check the other subjects at the door! We are not always going to
> agree with everyone else about every subject so why not share the birding
> activities and reports that we all enjoy and let it go at that. Ultimately,
> I guess it's up to the administrator of this site as to what will be
> allowed and what will not be tolerated. Usually when I see posts like this
> I hit the delete button, I think it's a shame we have to trudge through all
> the minutiae to get to the heart of what this site was initially intended
> to be… a place to share our passion of birding! Patrick J.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 04:48:53 PM EST, 'THOMAS HODGSON' via
> Birders <birders...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Well said Bill!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2020, at 4:24 PM, 'Bill Sonnett' via Birders <
> <birders...> wrote:
>
> 
>
> This group was designed to bring folks with like interest (in this case
> bird watching) together. Strongly expressed opinions on almost any other
> subject (cats, guns, eating meat, abortion, religion, politics, etc. etc.)
> in the end will divide us. That is why there are other groups that
> specialize in these types of debates. I am 77 and have been watching birds
> all my life and have many friends who enjoy the hobby with me. Almost all
> disagree with each other on some subject, but we get together to celebrate
> our like interest. Most have the maturity to leave their differences aside
> and treat everyone with respect and enjoy what we have in common. With that
> being said, my vote is to stick with birds.
>
>
>
> William Sonnett, Jackson, Michigan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 03:12:39 PM EST, <ibblazin...> <
> <ibblazin...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you, Josh, for being the voice of reason. I agree that if one
> opinion needs to be honored, all should be. I agree with Patrick. I also
> agree with other posters who say all birders or, more appropriately, all
> people deserve courtesy and respect and that discussions about race are
> important. I just don’t think this board is the place to have them or that
> it should be used to promote one’s social agenda. As for “if you don’t like
> the post, don’t read it”, that’s nearly impossible. I don’t know what the
> post is about until I read it and, once read, it can’t be un-read if it’s
> objectionable to me. I subscribe to Birders to learn about/find news about
> birds. There are plenty of other forums for posting links and having
> discussions about social issues. Can we please stick to birds and the
> occasional butterfly?
>
> Anita
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Joshua Haas <joshuahaas...>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
> *To:* Lisa Lava-Kellar <lisalk...>
> *Cc:* Marta Manildi <mamanildi...>; Jchordash <jchordash...>;
> Allen Chartier <amazilia3...>; birders <birders...>
> *Subject:* Re: [birders] Orion Magazine | 9 Rules for the Woke Birdwatcher
>
>
>
> Those speaking positively about the article are sharing their opinion no
> differently than the “PB” who posted their opinion. Just because you may
> not agree with the person doesn’t mean they can’t have an opinion. They
> wondered if this was the right place for the article. The list owner
> decided it was. Seems done to me.
>
>
>
> *-Josh Haas*
>
> 269-420-9918
>
> <josh...>
>
> https://www.hawksonthewing.com
>
> https://www.facebook.com/hawksonthewing
>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2020, at 14:15, Lisa Lava-Kellar <lisalk...> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I completely agree with those of you who have spoken up about the odd and
> recent message from PB.
>
>
>
> Thanks to each of you for sharing your thoughts. I wholeheartedly support
> each of your sentiments.
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 9:47 AM 'Marta Manildi' via Birders <
> <birders...> wrote:
>
> I loved the post and appreciated it. The introduction to Orion Magazine
> was an added bonus.
>
> Marta
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2020, at 12:05 AM, Jchordash <jchordash...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Allen,
>
>
>
> Thank for expressing my sentiments. You said it better than I could.
>
>
>
> JC
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2020, at 9:34 PM, Allen Chartier <amazilia3...> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I have been on this list for perhaps 2 decades. From the beginning, it has
> never been appropriate to complain to the entire list about what may or may
> not be within the (rather broad) guidelines of the list. Those inquiries
> are always to be addressed only to the listowner.
>
>
>
> The posting in question merely provided a link that can be visited, or
> not, without providing any commentary on the content. Responses to this
> post, including mine, expressed approval and interest in the content, but
> did not share any details of that content. So, what could possibly be
> objectionable about that?
>
>
>
> The content at the link discusses, among other things, how we should
> understand our fellow birders, appreciate the feelings and experiences of
> our fellow birders, understand how history has affected our fellow birders,
> explore ways to improve relationships with our fellow birders, and how we
> should respect our fellow birders. Anyone can disagree with these points of
> course, but specific arguments should be made on the content, not by
> attempts to shut these important conversations down.
>
>
>
> Allen T. Chartier
>
> Inkster, Michigan
>
> Email: <amazilia3...>
>
> Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mihummingbirdguy/collections/
>
> Website/Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 5:30 PM Patrick Baize <pkbaize...>
> wrote:
>
>
> does this really belong on birder's it looks and sounds like someone's
> personal, social and political viewpoint. Certainly not views that I share.
> Pat B. Howell, Michigan
>
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020, 12:31:43 PM EST, <juliet.berger...>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Posted to Washtenaw Audubon’s Facebook page, along with other thought
> provoking articles that April has shared in the last few months. Thanks,
> April.
> Juliet Berger
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 29, 2020, at 4:53 AM, April Campbell <adc14...> wrote:
> >
> > Drew keeps on. God bless him.
> >
> > https://orionmagazine.org/article/9-rules-for-the-woke-birdwatcher/
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > --
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> https://groups.google.com/a/great-lakes.net/d/msgid/birders/<CABVs24Linu0D4m6dpkMT0WgrO-Q64KY5Q5eivdbfKGJ-kCB4mQ...>
> <https://groups.google.com/a/great-lakes.net/d/msgid/birders/<CABVs24Linu0D4m6dpkMT0WgrO-Q64KY5Q5eivdbfKGJ-kCB4mQ...>?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
> --
>
> *Timothy McKay*: University of Michigan
>
> Arthur F. Thurnau Professor of Physics <http://www.lsa.umich.edu/physics>,
> Astronomy <http://www.astro.lsa.umich.edu/>, and Education
> <http://soe.umich.edu>
>
> Principal Investigator of the ECoach
> <http://digitaleducation.umich.edu/dei/e-coach/>, and SEISMIC
> <https://sites.google.com/umich.edu/seismic/home> projects
>
> Associate Dean for Undergraduate Education
> <https://lsa.umich.edu/lsa/faculty-staff/undergraduate-education.html>, College
> of Literature, Science, and the Arts <https://lsa.umich.edu/>
>
>
>
> --
> Birders is a service of the Great Lakes Commission. Visit us at
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> <https://groups.google.com/a/great-lakes.net/d/msgid/birders/<CANALA3Vsgf0Tpg6OWJX78vFfUPasS6RJ4K2opVgmtVAi6VhK-g...>?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
> --
> Birders is a service of the Great Lakes Commission. Visit us at
> www.glc.org
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> <https://groups.google.com/a/great-lakes.net/d/msgid/birders/CAFoKnJXwan%<2BLxPTJVMyxwOUGzYdfWiiQ-dhQjYQrhnExK10RKw...>?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
> --
> Birders is a service of the Great Lakes Commission. Visit us at
> www.glc.org
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> <https://groups.google.com/a/great-lakes.net/d/msgid/birders/CANuU9sk_t%2BAFBThpa10qUosL4%3D7tYWxh6FfbLDFghqoX%<3DV0Cxg...>?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>

--
Birders is a service of the Great Lakes Commission. Visit us at www.glc.org
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