Date: 12/30/20 5:19 pm
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia3...>
Subject: Re: [birders] Orion Magazine | 9 Rules for the Woke Birdwatcher
Marta,

Thank you for finding the words that I have had difficulty with today. I
share your distress and some of your confusion. The description of the
BIRDERS list, visible to everyone who subscribes, is as follows:

BIRDERS provides a forum for those interested in birding in Michigan. It
contributes importantly to the goal of culturing and maintaining interest
in birding in Michigan and appreciation of Michigan’s natural wonders.

And, the LIStOWNER has allowed that 6-word positing with a link to be
posted, and allowed it to be discussed.

Carping that the list "rules" don't allow this discussion is clearly
delusional. It also fails to put forth a single argument about an
important question; why aren't there more birders of color? "Culturing and
maintaining interest in birding..." means recruiting more birders not only
to enrich our own experiences, but to increase the strength of our
alliances in fighting to conserve birds and address climate instability.

Sadly, it is not a mystery to me why there aren't more birders of color, or
why the few that are among us prefer to bird alone. It distresses me that
if I post just one similar thing in the future, despite the list discussing
"only birds" for 363 days a year, I would get the same shocking and
unwelcoming responses as I've seen here, and that is very sad and
counterproductive to the BIRDERS list, and to birding as a whole.

Allen T. Chartier
Inkster, Michigan
Email: <amazilia3...>
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mihummingbirdguy/collections/
Website/Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:40 PM Marta Manildi <mamanildi...> wrote:

> The original post was 6 words long and a link to something written by a
> birder and nature lover. The strong responses against the post and the
> repeated characterization of it as being off-topic, unrelated to birding,
> are confusing and distressing to me. Is it because the link was to a
> literary/poetic expression of one man’s experience? What line did it
> cross? Or was it the further responses saying in effect “I enjoyed that”,
> or “thank you”, that crossed some listserve boundary?
> Marta
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 30, 2020, at 6:09 PM, pat j <p40warhawk2002...> wrote:
>
> 
>
> When we send an email to this list server, we send it to
> <birders...>, not <My_Agenda...>! I agree with
> Bill, I think we need to get back to bird related subjects on this list
> server and check the other subjects at the door! We are not always going to
> agree with everyone else about every subject so why not share the birding
> activities and reports that we all enjoy and let it go at that. Ultimately,
> I guess it's up to the administrator of this site as to what will be
> allowed and what will not be tolerated. Usually when I see posts like this
> I hit the delete button, I think it's a shame we have to trudge through all
> the minutiae to get to the heart of what this site was initially intended
> to be… a place to share our passion of birding! Patrick J.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 04:48:53 PM EST, 'THOMAS HODGSON' via
> Birders <birders...> wrote:
>
>
> Well said Bill!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 30, 2020, at 4:24 PM, 'Bill Sonnett' via Birders <
> <birders...> wrote:
>
> 
> This group was designed to bring folks with like interest (in this case
> bird watching) together. Strongly expressed opinions on almost any other
> subject (cats, guns, eating meat, abortion, religion, politics, etc. etc.)
> in the end will divide us. That is why there are other groups that
> specialize in these types of debates. I am 77 and have been watching birds
> all my life and have many friends who enjoy the hobby with me. Almost all
> disagree with each other on some subject, but we get together to celebrate
> our like interest. Most have the maturity to leave their differences aside
> and treat everyone with respect and enjoy what we have in common. With that
> being said, my vote is to stick with birds.
>
> William Sonnett, Jackson, Michigan
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 30, 2020, 03:12:39 PM EST, <ibblazin...> <
> <ibblazin...> wrote:
>
>
> Thank you, Josh, for being the voice of reason. I agree that if one
> opinion needs to be honored, all should be. I agree with Patrick. I also
> agree with other posters who say all birders or, more appropriately, all
> people deserve courtesy and respect and that discussions about race are
> important. I just don’t think this board is the place to have them or that
> it should be used to promote one’s social agenda. As for “if you don’t like
> the post, don’t read it”, that’s nearly impossible. I don’t know what the
> post is about until I read it and, once read, it can’t be un-read if it’s
> objectionable to me. I subscribe to Birders to learn about/find news about
> birds. There are plenty of other forums for posting links and having
> discussions about social issues. Can we please stick to birds and the
> occasional butterfly?
>
> Anita
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Joshua Haas <joshuahaas...>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
> *To:* Lisa Lava-Kellar <lisalk...>
> *Cc:* Marta Manildi <mamanildi...>; Jchordash <jchordash...>;
> Allen Chartier <amazilia3...>; birders <birders...>
> *Subject:* Re: [birders] Orion Magazine | 9 Rules for the Woke Birdwatcher
>
>
>
> Those speaking positively about the article are sharing their opinion no
> differently than the “PB” who posted their opinion. Just because you may
> not agree with the person doesn’t mean they can’t have an opinion. They
> wondered if this was the right place for the article. The list owner
> decided it was. Seems done to me.
>
>
>
> *-Josh Haas*
>
> 269-420-9918
>
> <josh...>
>
> https://www.hawksonthewing.com
>
> https://www.facebook.com/hawksonthewing
>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2020, at 14:15, Lisa Lava-Kellar <lisalk...> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I completely agree with those of you who have spoken up about the odd and
> recent message from PB.
>
>
>
> Thanks to each of you for sharing your thoughts. I wholeheartedly support
> each of your sentiments.
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 9:47 AM 'Marta Manildi' via Birders <
> <birders...> wrote:
>
> I loved the post and appreciated it. The introduction to Orion Magazine
> was an added bonus.
>
> Marta
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2020, at 12:05 AM, Jchordash <jchordash...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Allen,
>
>
>
> Thank for expressing my sentiments. You said it better than I could.
>
>
>
> JC
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2020, at 9:34 PM, Allen Chartier <amazilia3...> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I have been on this list for perhaps 2 decades. From the beginning, it has
> never been appropriate to complain to the entire list about what may or may
> not be within the (rather broad) guidelines of the list. Those inquiries
> are always to be addressed only to the listowner.
>
>
>
> The posting in question merely provided a link that can be visited, or
> not, without providing any commentary on the content. Responses to this
> post, including mine, expressed approval and interest in the content, but
> did not share any details of that content. So, what could possibly be
> objectionable about that?
>
>
>
> The content at the link discusses, among other things, how we should
> understand our fellow birders, appreciate the feelings and experiences of
> our fellow birders, understand how history has affected our fellow birders,
> explore ways to improve relationships with our fellow birders, and how we
> should respect our fellow birders. Anyone can disagree with these points of
> course, but specific arguments should be made on the content, not by
> attempts to shut these important conversations down.
>
>
>
> Allen T. Chartier
>
> Inkster, Michigan
>
> Email: <amazilia3...>
>
> Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mihummingbirdguy/collections/
>
> Website/Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 5:30 PM Patrick Baize <pkbaize...>
> wrote:
>
>
> does this really belong on birder's it looks and sounds like someone's
> personal, social and political viewpoint. Certainly not views that I share.
> Pat B. Howell, Michigan
>
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020, 12:31:43 PM EST, <juliet.berger...>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Posted to Washtenaw Audubon’s Facebook page, along with other thought
> provoking articles that April has shared in the last few months. Thanks,
> April.
> Juliet Berger
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 29, 2020, at 4:53 AM, April Campbell <adc14...> wrote:
> >
> > Drew keeps on. God bless him.
> >
> > https://orionmagazine.org/article/9-rules-for-the-woke-birdwatcher/
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
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