Date: 10/4/19 11:26 am
From: Peter Quadarella (via carolinabirds Mailing List) <carolinabirds...>
Subject: Re: N Carolina Birder is featured guest on podcasty
I have received some private supportive comments that clearly don't want to
continue this disagreement in public so I too will let it drop, except to
say I disagree with much of what you have said including the distinction
between going to see new birds and writing them in a list. You can feel
free to berate me and others in public and private as you have done in the
past and I will let it go.

Peter Quadarella
Weddington, NC

On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 1:56 PM Nate Dias <carolinabirds...> wrote:

> Peter,
>
> You are engaging in a bit of a straw-man argument and seem to be confusing
> LISTING and BIRDING. They are not the same thing.
>
> I said "listing for the sake of listing and hyper-competitive birding are
> not exactly positive endeavors". This was not shaming anyone for
> birding. Obsessive listing perhaps, but not birding.
>
> You seem to be saying "the more people into listing/twitching, the better
> for conservation". I am skeptical of that contention. If it were true, I
> would be seeing them at public input meetings, council meetings, writing
> letters to the editor and Op-Eds, making public comments on draft
> proposals, etc. which is not the case. The few birders I see doing those
> things are almost never avid twitchers. Long-time birders and
> conservationists I know in other states report similar observations. And
> getting more people into twitching in recent years certainly hasn't
> translated to the voting booth in terms of conservation!
>
> Twitching goals get people interested in numbers and ticks, but I am not
> convinced getting people into twitching translates into bird conservation
> ACTIONS on a significant scale. But listing obsession does make people
> fabricate sightings, trespass, trample habitat, flush/disturb birds, and a
> host of other ill effects - all carbon footprint issues aside.
>
> I think it would be much better when introducing beginners to birding to
> put less emphasis on twitching/listing and more on fieldcraft, bird
> behavior, and enjoying birds for their own sake. Not to make some kind of
> competitive numbers game out of it. If someone isn't attracted to birding
> on its own merits (but need some kind of listing 'hook'), then maybe they
> aren't inclined towards conservation in the first place. And from
> experience, I know children crave lessons on things like fieldcraft,
> tracking, and animal behavior. I claim those would be more effective
> "hooks" for young people than twitching - which can lead to birding burnout.
>
> Nathan Dias - Charleston, SC
>
> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 11:38 AM Peter Quadarella <pvquad...> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps we should all stay home and give up this hobby altogether? This
>> short-sighted view ignores the fact that these sorts of goals creates
>> excitement and interest and in the long run gets more people interested in
>> and acting towards conservation. The impact of getting more people caring
>> about birds for the rest of their lives far outweighs some trips someone
>> takes in the car to see them.
>>
>> Besides, I thought this was a birding forum, not a conservation forum. I
>> know there is a deep connection, but if we are to be shamed for actually
>> birding, then I misunderstood the whole point of subscribing.
>>
>> Peter Quadarella
>> Weddington, NC
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 10:39 AM Nate Dias <carolinabirds...> wrote:
>>
>>> You make good points regarding carbon footprints and "travel shaming"
>>> Steve.
>>>
>>> But I think the truth may be somewhere in the middle of your position
>>> and Mike's. I think listing for the sake of listing and hyper-competitive
>>> birding are not exactly positive endeavors and they deserve some social
>>> pushback. I regret being such a gung-ho lister earlier in my life and am
>>> really glad to be back into the joy of birding for its own sake and not
>>> giving a damn about listing any more.
>>>
>>> I suggest another shaming avenue for folks - giving birders heck who
>>> keep their swift-capable chimneys capped and inaccessible. If birders
>>> won't do the right thing on that topic, who will?
>>>
>>> Regarding the subject of this thread: I don't agree with Edward's
>>> characterization of "a quest to see 50% of the species in each of the lower
>>> 48 U.S. states and D.C." as an "amazing goal".
>>>
>>> Terms that leap to my mind about a quest like that are ones like
>>> ‘pointless’, ‘arbitrary and insipid’, ‘list-obsessed’ and so forth. A
>>> better quest might be volunteering on conservation projects in each of the
>>> Lower 48 states and DC. Now that would be an amazing goal.
>>>
>>> Nathan Dias - Charleston, SC
>>>
>>> --
>>> flickr.com/photos/offshorebirder2/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.flickr.com_photos_offshorebirder2_&d=DwMFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=ymRCw6Q-sBitug_rdeO1Tokz-I_SX2LQN2_Ocvlal9U&m=do23ERMsHtnXpII0PQD75_cOWmugsdEcLN73SpYeqQo&s=FbU1NnRJCsHz__QTzTB1FJ4NgscLu-p0sZQmLiZipac&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>> "These days I prefer to hunt with a camera. A good photograph demands
>>> more skill from the hunter, better nerves and more patience than the rifle
>>> shot." -- Bror Blixen
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 9:49 AM "Shultz, Steven" <carolinabirds...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But where does the electricity come from to power that EV? Four words:
>>>> coal, natural gas, nuclear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> EVs are great for a number of reasons, but are not necessarily
>>>> “clean”. It just moves the pollution upstream and out of sight. Sort of
>>>> like getting the meat wrapped up at the grocery instead of killing the
>>>> cow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, wind and solar are nice (although they have environmental issues
>>>> of their own). But for, example, solar to replace coal, we would need to
>>>> cover an area of the United States equal to about the eastern third of the
>>>> country with solar panels (the power density of coal is so much higher than
>>>> solar). And I don’t think we really want to replace all that space with
>>>> panels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So it’s not simple. And it’s not just about travel. All power
>>>> generation pollutes or replaces land with infrastructure. Solar might be
>>>> the cleanest, but it only works during the day, and is very inefficient
>>>> compared to other sources. Nuclear is probably the next least harmful, but
>>>> all one has to say is Chernobyl and that discussion screeches to a halt.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It’s not easy. And in about 100 years the current discussion won’t
>>>> matter (coal, natural gas and oil are finite and expected to essentially
>>>> run out in a blink of time from a geological perspective). Yes, we will be
>>>> left with the CO2 problems from the present, but will need to still find a
>>>> way to create the energy needed for civilization (which increases at a
>>>> significant rate).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don’t get me wrong, I support clean power and the push for
>>>> environmentally friendly solutions, but pragmatically, publically outing a
>>>> person for choosing to burn a few gallons of gasoline (or the equivalent in
>>>> generated electricity) isn’t helping. It’s preaching to the choir.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So let’s please stop with the “travel shaming” and “lifestyle shaming”
>>>> on the mailing list. If you are using the power to type the message, you
>>>> are using electricity and creating associated environmental impacts. Maybe
>>>> a few of us are off the grid and producing power with pico-hydro stations,
>>>> but for the most part, it feels disingenuous to shame folks for driving 2
>>>> hours while sitting in an air conditioned house.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Written from an air conditioned building (it was 100 degrees yesterday
>>>> for crying out loud!)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve Shultz
>>>>
>>>> Apex NC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* <carolinabirds-request...> [mailto:
>>>> <carolinabirds-request...>] *On Behalf Of *Gary Harbour
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 04, 2019 9:27 AM
>>>> *To:* Mike Judd
>>>> *Cc:* Edward Pullen; <carolinabirds...>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: N Carolina Birder is featured guest on podcasty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This email is from an external source - exercise caution regarding
>>>> links and attachments.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mike, Get an EV then you can 😊 about doing it. Good birding, Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 2, 2019, at 10:41 PM, Mike Judd (via carolinabirds Mailing List)
>>>> <carolinabirds...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wonder what his carbon footprint looks like😩.
>>>>
>>>> Thinking about running around to taste state & regional pies myself.
>>>> Surely that would be meaningful, yes? My life list of pies is nearing the
>>>> magical 700 mark👍
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike Judd
>>>>
>>>> Formerly of Brevard
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 2, 2019, at 10:22 PM, Edward Pullen (via carolinabirds Mailing
>>>> List) <carolinabirds...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mike Resch, newly relocated to N. Carolina, is the featured guest on
>>>> the most recent episode of The Bird Banter Podcast. Mike has a quest to
>>>> see 50% of the species in each of the lower 48 U.S. states and D.C. He is
>>>> only 2 states from accomplishing this amazing goal, and talks about it on
>>>> this episode.
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__birdbanter.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=ymRCw6Q-sBitug_rdeO1Tokz-I_SX2LQN2_Ocvlal9U&m=uPmaJl6gVq8yI62W-CUVmN8FmFt8P_Td2UoInKGw47c&s=mgxVa_jToh91aRSSg5nydvCmSD6lJFDsz_awfINTKzQ&e=
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__birdbanter.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=ymRCw6Q-sBitug_rdeO1Tokz-I_SX2LQN2_Ocvlal9U&m=hEEH6gLrVrIbos5QJ2GY8ENFPHjWrmtoy13S8FxsF68&s=BmGNBcviQMJOU7Ktii9UiCGsw8A5IRMY4NCBwbe8B_g&e=>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can listent on the BIrd Banter site, or get the episode on Apple
>>>> Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify. Links on the signature block below.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Ed Pullen
>>>>
>>>> Follow The Bird Banter Podcast on iTunes
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__podcasts.apple.com_us_podcast_bird-2Dbanter_id1450449001&d=DwMFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=ymRCw6Q-sBitug_rdeO1Tokz-I_SX2LQN2_Ocvlal9U&m=hEEH6gLrVrIbos5QJ2GY8ENFPHjWrmtoy13S8FxsF68&s=S1KnpcYRaaCFTKMUW9harKudVrlWHW7A6XVGSKOL938&e=>
>>>> or the podcast feed of your choice
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__birdbanter.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=imBPVzF25OnBgGmVOlcsiEgHoG1i6YHLR0Sj_gZ4adc&r=ymRCw6Q-sBitug_rdeO1Tokz-I_SX2LQN2_Ocvlal9U&m=hEEH6gLrVrIbos5QJ2GY8ENFPHjWrmtoy13S8FxsF68&s=tA88K6LZo5pLhZag9pfQY1oFL6nXKf2IURHUrK8KL4g&e=>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>

 
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