Date: 3/5/18 3:17 pm From: Eric Kershner via va-bird <va-bird...> Subject: Re: [Va-bird] Red-naped Sapsucker
Thought I would jump in, even if Marlene isn't interested in the discussion anymore. I think others can learn a lot from this dialogue between birders. This is how we as a community learn about our passion, share knowledge, and learn about exciting identification challenges.
I agree with a lot of what Marlene says about needing more than one image to make a conclusion. This is an interesting bird and a great photograph. I won't provide a definitive id...because it is such an interesting bird. At first glance it does seem to have more YBSA traits than RNSA (messy back - from what can be seen, and the black framing of the throat).
But what I wanted to add here is the notion that this bird is a hybrid YBSA just because of the red on the nape. I think there is some confusion that YBSA that occasionally shows red on the nape does not indicate hybridization. A more plausible explanation is that the a "red naped" YBSA is one demonstrating a recessive trait for that species gene. Many species of woodpeckers show red napes and certainly "red naped" woodpeckers are not some hybrid with RNSA. The simple genetics answer is that red napes is a gene that can either be dominant or recessive. Those species that regularly show red napes (Downy, Hairy, Nuttall's, etc) the gene is likely to be dominant and when the red nape color is rare it is recessive.
Anyway - truly and interesting bird.
Eric Kershner South Riding, VA -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 3/5/18, Marlene A Condon via va-bird <va-bird...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Va-bird] Red-naped Sapsucker To: <sheagordontiller...> Cc: <va-bird...> Date: Monday, March 5, 2018, 5:59 PM
I haven't time to discuss your comments. This thread is taking up too much of my time (I have an article I need to get written and should be working on it) so let me just say this:
It would be helpful for folks to remember that they should not jump to conclusions about how someone makes an I.D. My photo wasn't put out there as something to argue about. It was a nice pic of a bird I'd identified based upon dozens of photos taken here, so I used it for my column. I shared it with folks only because I thought folks would find it of interest.
I never expected people to be summarily discounting my I.D. when they can't even see every side of the bird in the picture published. I HAVE seen every side of this bird, but everyone participating on this thread seems to think they can tell more than I from this one photo! Why is that? I didn't say that was my only photo, yet people have assumed it is. And the conversation actually began as if I wasn't even a part of the situation!!!!
To be honest, this whole discussion seems very odd to me, and I really can't spend more time on it. I've taken too much time already to provide far more info than I realized I'd end up having to do by sharing my sighting. Folks can call the bird what they wish, but the reality is that they are making a call based upon one photo only, which seems quite presumptuous.
In a message dated 3/5/2018 5:27:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time, <sheagordontiller...> writes:
Hi, Marlene. As others have said, an interesting bird.
While I'll leave it to the real sapsucker experts like Frank to make a call on something that falls in the field of their years of expertise, I just thought it would be helpful to remember that there can be very strange variants of a bird without the species being different. I'd seen only typical mallards for years, of course even before I got into birding, and then this past fall I bumped into one wild leucistic individual. Even with leucistic individuals being quite regular, it took a long time for me to happen into one. With some variations that are far rarer, it could take much longer for an observer to find one even in the species' normal territory. Nonetheless, I think that the possibility is important to consider when also weighing the equally rare possibility of a vagrant bird. Many birders will typically look at the possibility of an odd, in-species variation when also looking at the option of a vagrant bird. Quite often the possibility ends up being a reality in the eyes of more seasoned birders than myself who can more confidently make a nuanced ID call like this one.
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:48 PM, Marlene A Condon via va-bird <va-bird...> wrote: Hi Frank,
Thanks so much for writing. I didn't know we had California birders on here!!!!
I have some questions, please.
(1) When you say that "this bird looks good for an normal adult male Yellow-bellied Sapsucker", are you referring to the birds in the Great Basin where you have surveyed for years? I have to say that the bird in my photo does not look like any Yb Sap I've ever seen in the east. So, are you saying "my" bird is from the Great Basin?
(2) What makes you say that a Yb Sap with a red nape is not necessarily a hybrid? Are you saying that the Yb Sap has genes for this characteristic? If so, could you please provide a reference for this statement?
(3) I looked online at many photos of Yb Saps and not one showed a red nape. Could you please provide me with links to some pics?
(4) Here's the link to the Cornell pic of a Red-naped male with black around the red. It's available to everyone (I'd thought it was in the pay-to-view section).
In a message dated 3/5/2018 1:00:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time, <fogartyfa...> writes:
As someone who has surveyed for Red-naped Sapsucker in the Great Basin for years, I can feel confident saying this bird looks good for an normal adult male Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. Red nape patches are uncommon in this species but by no means unheard of or a definitive indication of hybrid origin. I've seen this in the field on YBSA several times, and seen it in photos dozens of times. The few brownish feathers high on the back are not atypical in adults of any species and not necessarily indicative of this being a Second-Year bird.
The two most important features for distinguishing these two species, the latter of which was not mentioned at all in the ID, are the throat/malar pattern and back pattern. This bird has a typical YBSA throat pattern, with the red throat completely encased by a thick, black border. I have never seen this in hundreds of RNSA I have surveyed, despite being on the look out for hybrids. As an aside, I checked the BNA media archive for this species and all of the birds there lack this feature and look fine for RNSA. The back pattern of this bird, while not seen straight on, is extensively white and messy which also supports a pure YBSA. RNSA typically has less white on the back, with the white markings clustered into two distinct, vertical lines.
Frank Fogarty Davis, CA
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Marlene A Condon via va-bird <va-bird...> wrote: Although I wasn't asked how I made my identification, I guess I should at least address what has been written here.
Although some books make mention of Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers having a red nape, I have to ask, "How many people out there have ever seen this?" I have been paying attention to birds for as long as I can remember, while growing up in the Northeast, living out west, and living in Virginia. Not only have I never seen a YB Sap with a red nape, but as far as I can tell from this list serve, neither has anyone else.
I might point out that the suggestion that a YB Sap has a red nape would mean the bird must carry Red-naped genes in order to express that red nape, which would make the bird a hybrid, not a YB Sap.
Regarding that black border: You can find many pictures online of birds identified as Red-naped Sapsuckers that were taken out west by people who live out west, and the birds show a fully black-enclosed red area. In fact. if I recall correctly, I even found such a picture at the Cornell Birds of North America write-up on Red-naped Sapsuckers (the version you pay to access).
After looking at many, many photos, and looking up this bird and Yb Sap in many, many books, I have to conclude that the I.D. characteristics are not set in stone, as some folks claim them to be. In fact, considering that all of these sapsuckers were once lumped together as one species, it's surprising anyone would think the field marks are that definitive.
In a message dated 3/5/2018 9:40:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time, <va-bird...> writes:
Marshall, I also think yellow-bellied. They can occasionally have a red nape, and the throat is completely bordered in black.
Marc Ribaudo <moribaudo...>
On Monday, March 5, 2018 Marshall Faintich via va-bird <va-bird...> wrote: Marlene Condon posted a link to a photo of the Red-naped Sapsucker that she
As I have only seen one Red-naped Sapsucker, my posting here is really more of a question for learning than disputing Marlene's identification. The photo that she posted is clearly an interesting bird. When I first looked at it, Yellow-bellied Sapsucker jumped into my mind - perhaps the gizz, or posture of the bird. But this bird clearly has red on its nape. So I started checking references. Although Sibley's hardback field guide does not state the following, his electronic app states for Yellow-bellied, "nape, usually
white, occasionally red." It also states that the throat of the Yellow-bellied Sapsucker has "limited red with a complete black border" as seen in Marlene's photo, whereas the Red-naped Sapsucker's throat has
"extensive red with incomplete black border," which is also the case in my photos of this species taken in Arizona. Additionally, Sibley's hardback guide states that the Red-naped has white bars in two rows on its back, and
the Yellow-bellied has messy white bars on its back. I can't tell from the side view on Marlene's photo what its back really looks like. I also can't see its white wing bar, but that feature might be covered by breast
So for those of you with expert knowledge of sapsuckers, is this bird a Red-naped or a variation of a Yellow-bellied? Either way, it's an
interesting bird, and thanks to Marlene for posting the photo.