Date: 7/31/19 7:40 am
From: Tim Rodenkirk <timrodenkirk...>
Subject: [obol] Re: Titmouse Oak or Juniper?
Does anyone know if sonograms can be used to reliably separate these two
species? If so it would be worthwhile to try and get audio on birds in
K-Falls and Adel and vicinity.

Tim R
Coos Bay

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 9:59 PM <rriparia...> wrote:

> Yes, certainly a complicated topic.
> First of all, I'm not an expert, but I do have an opinion, and that
> opinion has fluctuated through the years, but a good part of that opinion
> is based upon the publication by Carla Cicero, Sibling Species of Titmice
> in the Parus Inornatus Complex. I have that publication, and could lend it
> out.
> Maybe things have changed since that publication, maybe not. I don't know.
> I heard that there might be further investigations for populations further
> north in at least Klamath and Lake Cos. in Oregon, and in northern
> California, but have never heard of it actually happening.
> As for the speculation that the species in Lake and in eastern Oregon
> could be hybrid, or even Oak, I would still refer to Cicero which had
> specimens near Adel, Lake Co., and near Lorella, (near Bonanza) that fell
> into the Juniper status for species designation. Yes, Lava Beds specimens
> were designated as hybrids.
> When it comes to documenting it would be my opinion that the evidence
> supports calling birds in certain locations because of specimens taken
> nearby. So, I would call Adel birds Juniper Titmouse, and birds near
> Lorella, Juniper Titmouse. I encountered a titmouse on the Bly II BBS
> several years ago and submitted that observation as titmouse sp. I submit
> birds encountered during the Klamath Falls CBC, and they are present on
> most counts in the Klamath Falls areas of Moore Park, Roosevelt Heights,
> Round Lake, and over at the base of Stukel Mountain, as titmouse sp. I
> believe Mike Robbins submitted the titmouse observed on the Tule Lake CBCs,
> when they were present, as titmouse sp., as he was aware of the hybrid
> status there (they have not occurred since a prescribed burn took out the
> trees in the southern part of the park and within the count boundary). I
> submit those as titmouse sp. due to the idea that they aren't very close to
> where specimens were taken, and so, I opt to titmouse sp.
> The ebird posts by an array of bird enthusiasts is an interesting quandry.
> Many people use it more for a location to keep their records, and some pay
> particular attention to their lists, and the number of species they have
> for the state, county, or other area. Since I really can't control that,
> I'm OK with flexing my opinion and accepting Klamath Falls as an area that
> more than likely has Oak Titmouse. And I'm OK with accepting Willow
> Reservoir birds as Juniper Titmouse due to the proximity to Lorella and the
> status of that specimen labeled as Juniper. The evidence that I am
> presented with does not support Oak Titmouse at Adel, nor does support Oak
> Titmouse out at Lorella. Since hybrid seems to be a status for Lava Beds,
> and that's a designation based upon evidence, choosing hybrid might not
> mean you don't know, but rather you think birds have mixed genetic
> backgrounds, or are not pure enough. That may or may not be true itself.
> But, that's just my opinion.
> So, where's the evidence for Klamath Falls? There's none, except maybe
> that they are quite brownish compared to birds seen further east, and,
> here's my hunch that I've had for quite some time, but haven't had the time
> to pursue it, until maybe now. My hypothesis is that the population in the
> Klamath Falls area could be linked to the Rogue Valley Oak Titmouse
> subspecies, that has oozed over into the Klamath River Canyon, coming in
> from the Greensprings area, or along those lower hills, and into the
> canyon. The titmouse continues northward into the Running Y area, and
> actually along the eastern flank of Upper Klamath Lake, maybe to the Algoma
> area. I have not encountered titmouse north of those locations in that part
> of the Klamath Basin. I think the titmouse on the Dorris side of the canyon
> is also related that subspecies. But that's just my thinking of the
> population that is connected to the Klamath Basin, and I'm hedging that
> it's not that closely related to the subspecies of the Central Valley of
> California. I've also considered the connections eastward, which Klamath
> Falls observations follow the hills along its north limits over to Olene,
> connected to Stukel Mountain, and eastward to Dairy, where Mike Denny has a
> record from a long time ago, and towards Bly and on out to the Goose Lake
> and Lakeview. So, the populations are connected. The Dorris and Keno birds
> also have connections, to the west towards Rogue Valley as I mentioned, but
> also over to Mount Dome and further east to Lava Beds, and then across to
> Clear Lake and Modoc Plateau. So, the Klamath Falls birds certainly have
> connections to populations to the east and west, but , in my opinion, they
> seem closer to the Rogue Valley subspecies (I'm not home right now and
> can't refer to Cicero which has that subspecies mapped and I could tell
> you). Anyway, until further investigations add to the knowledge of the
> split, I'm OK with things as they area. Maybe that's not scientific, but I
> think calling birds across eastern Oregon hybrid titmouse unscientific too.
> But, as you can see, I've thought about it quite a bit, and in doing so, I
> have an opinion. I'm sure some of you will beg to differ. Or, maybe most of
> us are not that far off. Fun to discuss though.
> I'm more eager than ever now, to start checking out those Rogue Valley
> titmice!
> Kevin Spencer
> Klamath Falls, OR
> -----------------------------------------
> From: "Tim Rodenkirk"
> To: <acontrer56...>
> Cc: "Tom Crabtree"
> Sent: Tuesday July 30 2019 9:15:07PM
> Subject: [obol] Re: Titmouse Oak or Juniper?
> PS: I am guilty of calling those Adel birds Juniper based on location.
> Maybe that works maybe it doesn’t. I know there has been past work done on
> distribution but times are a changing and if I read the old research
> correctly it could be that Oak can expand into Juniper habitat but not visa
> versa? That is all so old now though- who knows what is happening? Maybe
> something OBRC should be checking on? What happens on eBird when we get Oak
> Titmice reports from K-Falls, all assumed correct? I thought that was
> within the hybrid zone originally studied but I think people are just
> calling then Oaks and moving on- should these be reviewed, how would we be
> able to separate the species???
> What a mess- worthy of further discussion on OBOL!
> Tim R
> In SW OR
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 6:59 PM Tim Rodenkirk <timrodenkirk...>
> wrote:
>> All the eBird stuff aside Tom I think people assume that their location
>> may mean it is one species or the other- period. That means that although
>> there may be lots of records of one species or the other in CA or even OR
>> (on eBird or wherever) can these observations be based on actually sight
>> and sound ID- or do people just assume it is one species or the other and
>> record that into eBird as per the old standards (which do not help anyone
>> trying to figure out what is where)? So eBird records, at least on the
>> Eastside in OR, without good documentation, should really be called
>> Titmouse sp. Bet that hasn’t been happening! Such a mess...
>> Tim R
>> way over in Coos County
>> On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 5:27 PM Alan Contreras <acontrer56...>
>> wrote:
>>> Thanks Tom. I have no idea what the hybrid situation is like. As is
>>> often the case, Oregon is a Zone of Complications.
>>> Alan Contreras
>>> <acontrer56...>
>>> Eugene, Oregon
>>> On Jul 30, 2019, at 5:25 PM, Tom Crabtree <tc...> wrote:
>>> Alan,
>>> Here are two maps for comparison. First is Juniper Titmouse. There are
>>> no records in eBird west of what the map shows.
>>> <image001.png>
>>> The next is of Oak Titmouse. There are no records east of what this
>>> shows:
>>> <image004.jpg>
>>> There are no records for Oak Titmouse in Nevada according to the Nevada
>>> Bird Records Committee (or in eBird for that matter). As the map shows,
>>> Adel is due north of the Nevada state line.
>>> Tom Crabtree
>>> *From:* <obol-bounce...> [mailto:<obol-bounce...>
>>> <obol-bounce...>] *On Behalf Of *Alan Contreras
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 30, 2019 3:15 PM
>>> *To:* <aslamoreaux...>
>>> *Cc:* <obol...>
>>> *Subject:* [obol] Re: Titmouse Oak or Juniper?
>>> As far as I know there are no known specimens or otherwise proven Oak
>>> Titmouse east of California and the s. Klamath River of Oregon and all the
>>> ones in Nevada are considered Juniper.
>>> I’m not sure if anyone has studied the ones in Lake County Oregon but
>>> I’m not sure why they’d be presumed Oak. That said, there is very little
>>> Juniper T population in nw Nevada according to the state atlas and I’m not
>>> sure where the populations connect.
>>> Joel, what’s the status around Sheldon?
>>> Alan Contreras
>>> <acontrer56...>
>>> Eugene, Oregon
>>> On Jul 30, 2019, at 3:06 PM, Alex Lamoreaux <aslamoreaux...>
>>> wrote:
>>> Also, is there any real evidence those Adel area birds are actually
>>> Juniper... they are almost certainly hybrids or just Oak.
>>> Alex
>>> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 8:38 PM Larry S. Goodhew <lsg...>
>>> wrote:
>>> This is a titmouse I saw 10/21/18 in Klamath Falls It may be to brownish
>>> to be a Juniper. Would like some feedback. Thanks. Larry Goodhew
>>> Walla walla.
>>> You have been sent 1 picture.
>>> IMG_4755.JPG
>>> These pictures were sent with Picasa, from Google.
>>> Try it out here: <>
>>> --
>>> Alex Lamoreaux
>>> 717-943-7086
>>> Naturalist and Senior Leader/North America Specialist for Wildside
>>> Nature Tours
>>> <>

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