Date: 5/5/19 5:43 pm
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle...>
Subject: Re: [SFBirds] Possible Black-tailed Gull Lake Merced Boathouse
Hi Al -

Appreciate your detailed response. A lot of folks monitor these sites
to learn about these complex subjects and it's great to have helpful
responses. Yes, "confused" is an operative word by most when it comes
to gulls, and my aim is to try my best to crack these nuts. I too
look a lot at gulls and well know not to let one odd mark determine
an outcome. Age, molt status, time of year, feather-by-feather
analysis in consideration of feather generation, etc., is what needs
to happen.

I know folks have mis-ID'd Black-tailed as California Gulls in the
past, even here in SF, so it's not pie in the sky to look closely at
odd Californias. In any case, I hope others may have gained something
from this exercise, as I have, whether or not a final outcome is
agreed to. Here's to one of us (including readers of this site)
finding a Black-tailed Gull!


At 02:23 PM 5/5/2019, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
> My thought, from someone who spends a ton of time looking at gulls, is
>that Peter's gull looks absolutely normal for a California other than the
>deformed bill. This is an opinion based on looking diligently at gulls, not
>a flippant comment. By looking normal, I mean it really does not show
>anything unusual other than that bill. So I find it confusing that there is
>any need to "dig deeper" on a bird such as this. It is not a Larus sp? As
>you noted in a previous email, it is definitively a California Gull. It is
>also a bird in its first cycle, in transition to the second cycle. So those
>primaries and tail are juvie feathers. I think that bill threw you. The back
>darkness looks within the norm as well compared to adjacent gulls.
> Here are some photos to look at tail pattern. First cycle Californias
>routinely look dark tailed, some with a small amount of white spotting on
>the narrow outer vane of the outer tail feathers. But many, perhaps most,
>also show some pale barring on the inside (inner vane) of the outer
>rectrices. In most cases you cannot see this, you need the tail to be fully
>spread or you need to see it from below. As these birds wear and fade, these
>areas become more prominent as the outer vanes wear, and also as the pale
>barring becomes paler through fading.
>I am continuing this discussion mainly for the folks out there looking at
>gulls, who like studying the local species, and are hoping to find a
>Black-tailed Gull one day. I am one of those hoping to do so, I think 5 more
>years should do it!! But trust me, the day that one shows up in front of
>you, it will be clear-cut. They are a distinctive gull, and will stand out
>like sore thumbs in our local gulls. But these oddball versions of our local
>birds (the bill of this bird for example), can throw you for a loop. That is
>Alvaro Jaramillo
>-----Original Message-----
>From: <SFBirds...> <SFBirds...> On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2019 9:40 AM
>To: <jmorlan...>
>Cc: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao...>; <SFBirds...>
>Subject: Re: [SFBirds] Possible Black-tailed Gull Lake Merced Boathouse
>Hi Joe and Al -
>Appreciate the responses and will concede that it is most likely a CAGU,
>though I'd question first-cycle with that much dark gray in the back and
>this tail pattern. As we know, second-cycle (or first-cycle) gulls in May
>are extremely variable, and I was able to find some trashed Black-taileds on
>line that resembled this bird in bill color and body plumage. Even one with
>an exaggerated hook to the tip like this bird had. Very few photos are
>available of the spread tails of CAGUs and those that I could find showed
>all-dark rectrices
>(1st-cycle) or barred bases (second-cycle) and none with pale tips or a
>banded appearance. Of course with second-cycle gulls I prefer something
>concrete to just, oh, it looks 'normal' for this without digging deeper. The
>back also appeared quite dark for CAGU, matching Black-tailed better, but
>can go with this being a lighting effect or within variation of fresh
>second-alternate feathers.
>In the end, I went back to the primary literature including this paper in
>which does show tail patterns of CAGU that come closer to the bird
>At 06:13 AM 5/5/2019, Joseph Morlan wrote:
> >All,
> >
> >Just for reference, I thought I would share photos of first and second
> >cycle Black-tailed Gulls from 7 May last year in Japan. They are the
> >top two photos here:
> >
> >
> >tm
> >
> >
> >On Sat, 4 May 2019 20:49:49 -0700, "Alvaro Jaramillo"
> ><chucao...> wrote:
> >
> > >Peter
> > > Hey there. I am confused here, to me this bird looks like a
> > >perfectly normal California Gull except for the bill. The bill is
> > >deformed, and apart from the shape, one telltale feature that it is
> > >deformed is that mealy look to the color of the bill. Often deformed
> > >gulls have this mealy bill color. I am not sure why, but it is pretty
> > > The tail looks normal to me as well. This is a juvenal tail, and
> > >does not look odd for a worn juv. Tail to me. Back darkness looks normal
>as well.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >Alvaro
> > >
> > >Alvaro Jaramillo
> > ><alvaro...>
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: <SFBirds...> <SFBirds...> On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
> > >Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2019 8:16 PM
> > >To: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao...>
> > >Cc: <SFBirds...>
> > >Subject: Re: [SFBirds] Possible Black-tailed Gull Lake Merced
> > >Boathouse
> > >
> > >I've done some research and can't find close matches with
> > >second-cycle Black-tailed so will re-identify it in eBird as Gull sp.
> > >The back still looks dark to me for CAGU and I'd like to find one
> > >with a tail pattern like this bird has. Both species at this age are
> > >of course extremely variable, which makes it but fun and a challenge.
> > >Comments on specific identification criteria, pro and con, still
> > >
> > >Peter
> > >
> > >At 07:48 PM 5/4/2019, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
> > >>Peter
> > >> It is a California Gull with a deformed bill.
> > >>Alvaro
> > >>
> > >>Alvaro Jaramillo
> > >><alvaro...>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: <SFBirds...> <SFBirds...> On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
> > >>Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2019 6:13 PM
> > >>To: <SFBirds...>
> > >>Subject: Re: [SFBirds] Possible Black-tailed Gull Lake Merced
> > >>Boathouse
> > >>
> > >><>
> > >>hec
> > >>klist
> > >>/S55815948
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>comments welcome on photos. P
> > >>
> > >>At 05:30 PM 5/4/2019, Peter Pyle via Groups.Io wrote:
> > >> >Just getting a quick word out. It's a second-cycle bird with a big
> > >> >long bill - thought it was a deform-billed CAGU but now that I'm
> > >> >looking at my photos the darker back and tail pattern may point
> > >> >more to Black-tailed. Will post photos to eBird. It was on the
> > >> >western of the three docks, the wide trex one. I flushed it to get
> > >> >flight shots but it pulled around and landed back on the dock with
>about 25 WEGUs.
> > >> >Also the continuing Palm Warbler in the myopoum at the top of the
> > >pull-out hill.
> > >> >
> > >> >This is in Lake Merced Park along Harding Road to the entrance of
> > >> >Harding Park golf course, north end of south arm of Lake Merced.
> > >> >
> > >> >Cheers, Peter
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>---
> > >>This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >--
> >Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

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