Date: 6/8/18 2:01 pm
From: Lars Per Norgren <larspernorgren...>
Subject: [obol] Re: Distribution of noble fir in the Coast Range???
*

Bear Camp Botanical Area? Where is that. I was taught that the Coast Range ended at the Coquille River, with the Tyee Sandstones. South bank of the Coquille is metamorphic? So I’ve always thought the Siskiyou/Klamath physiographic plant province began there. Not quoting any publications, just oral tradition- my father and Mr Rawlinson, a reluctant natural sciences teacher at Western View Jr High. lpn
> On Jun 8, 2018, at 1:19 PM, <dpvroman...> wrote:
>
> Don't believe Noble Fir (in a pure genetic form) occurs in Curry. As you mention, the Klamath Mtns true firs are a genetic mess. To toss in a bird, we banded at least one Allen's Hummer at Bear Camp Botanical Area, perhaps the highest elevation point in the southern coast range.
>
>
>
> 08 19:41, Tim Rodenkirk wrote:
>
>> I got mixed up on the noble/shasta red/white/grand fir thing again. Dennis Vroman did research on it. Suffice to say all of Curry is really in the Klamath Mts and not the Coast Range which I think would include Mt. Bolivar in Coos- north of there in the Coast Range I don't think there is any noble until you get to Mary's Peak.
>>
>> In SW OR in the Klamath providence the stuff that looks like white fir is actually a cross with grand fir- no true white fir to be found. The stuff that looks like noble fir I am unsure what the heck it is. I heard that Dennis Vroman did research and they found hybridization with CA red fir which would make it Shasta red fir. I talked to another researcher who thought since it was isolated it could be a remnant population of noble. It is a messy area in SW Oregon around Bear Camp in Curry where the Coast Range, Klamath Mts, and Cascade providences all meet. GT Towhee and Fox Sparrows breed and there are all sorts of rare plants.
>>
>> Dennis do you think there is any noble in Curry?
>>
>> Hey at least I threw a few birds into the discussion!
>>
>> Tim Rodenkirk
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 11:20 AM Tim Rodenkirk <timrodenkirk...> <mailto:<timrodenkirk...>> wrote:
>> Just for general info, the Oregon plant atlas is a superb tool for figuring out plant distribution in the state. All you have to do is put in the scientific name (like Abies procera for noble fir) and it will print a map with all known sites in the state (vouchered that is). In Coos and Curry there is no noble fir. The confusing tree that appears to look like noble is actually a grand fir/white fir cross. Kind of a messy area for true fir! Anyhow if you just google oregon plant atlas you can get a quick accurate distribution for most species in Oregon except for rare ones where location info is purposely not shared with the general public.
>>
>> Happy botanizing!
>> Tim Rodenkirk
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 10:08 AM David Irons <LLSDIRONS...> <mailto:<LLSDIRONS...>> wrote:
>> Thanks for all the responses to my noble fir query.
>>
>> Dave Irons
>> Beaverton, Oregon
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jun 8, 2018, at 8:57 AM, Wayne Hoffman <whoffman...> <mailto:<whoffman...>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi-
>>>
>>> Two other sites are on the top of Saddlebag Mountain in NE Lincoln County, and at nearby Lost Prairie. These have both Noble and Silver Fir. Lost Prairie is a spectacular Pleistocene relic habitat with lots of plants that otherwise have mostly disappeared from or become rare in the Coast Range, including Western White Pine, a native Mountain Ash, possibly as many as 6 species of huckleberries. It also has a large population of Fritillaria camschatcensis, which occurs from east Siberia into Alaska and south through British Columbia into the Washington Cascades, and in the Oregon Cascades south to somewhere near Mt. Jefferson. I am not sure whether Lost Prairie is farther south or not. It also has sundews, abundant sphagnum, bog orchids, Olympic Onions, and a small population of Elegant Fawn Lily.
>>>
>>> These spots are owned by BLM. but are miles behind the gates of surrounding timber companies.
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>> On 6/8/2018 7:23:35 AM, Lars Per Norgren <larspernorgren...> <mailto:<larspernorgren...>> wrote:
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> I am sure all the sites referred to by Ken involve naturally occurring trees. Noble fir (called "larch" by old time loggers, hence the numerous "Larch Mountains" in nw Oregon) was not a commercial lumber species in the past, and wouldn't have been planted. The Douglas-fir planted on Mt Hebo was a highly inappropriate seed source ("off site" in the words of Eric Forsman) and the trees struggled. All entities, public and private, have gotten very sophisticated in choice of seed source in the ensuing decades.Extensive clearcutting on Mt Hebo recently is to replace the D-fir with better genetic material. Best of all would be western hemlock, which doesn't get Swiss needle-cast, a non-native airborne fungus. lpn
>>>> On Jun 8, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Ken Chamberlain <kjchamberlain...> <mailto:<kjchamberlain...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>> Noble firs are scattered on Mount Hebo in Tillamook Co. coast range. Here is an example https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/4215255 <https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/4215255>
>>>>
>>>> They are not found on the most westerly and easterly which were most disturbed by DOD radar installations during Cold War era. The origin of the trees is unsure, they could have been planted after large fires burnt the area in the early 1900s.
>>>>
>>>> I've also see them on the higher ridges of NE Tillamook Co. (45.7364461,-123.3945503), with the same question of origin.
>>>>
>>>> Also, on Saddle Peak, Clatsop.
>>>>
>>>> While not technically in the coast range I recall seeing nobles on Brandy Peak, Curry Co, and Mt Bolivar, Coos. Both the highest peaks on their county
>>>>
>>>> I'd guess there are other locations as well.
>>>>
>>>> Ken Chamberlain
>>>> Portland
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 8, 2018, at 6:14 AM, David Irons <llsdirons...> <mailto:<llsdirons...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Good morning,
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a question for anyone who can answer it. Does noble fir occur anywhere in the Coast Range other then at summit of Marys Peak? I've not seen them elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave Irons
>>>>> Beaverton, OR


 
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