Date: 3/5/18 2:56 pm
From: kurtcapt87--- via va-bird <va-bird...>
Subject: Re: [Va-bird] Red-naped Sapsucker

An Interesting Discussion! This would be a great subject for ID Frontiers.
In any case, a quick look on the internet finds info on YBSA and RNSA
including hybrid. For example, there was a bird in Alabama in Dec 2008 that
generated a few questions. Here is the link:

(it's a complicated link and I am not sure if it will work after going
through VA Birds, so if it does not work then please google "pyle
yellow-bellied sapsucker" and go to the second page, you will see the link
to Alabama Birdlife.)

Its an easy read, has references, and an analysis. You can try your hand at
analyzing the Virginia bird. Note, a red nape does occur on YBSA (although
this is noted as "sometimes" and "rarely" in two references) which means
this characteristic is not definitive for ID'ing RNSA.


Kurt Gaskill

-----Original Message-----
From: va-bird <va-bird-bounces+kurtcapt87=<> On
Behalf Of Shea Tiller via va-bird
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 5:27 PM
To: Marlene A Condon <marlenecondon...>
Cc: VA-BIRD <va-bird...>
Subject: Re: [Va-bird] Red-naped Sapsucker

Hi, Marlene. As others have said, an interesting bird.

While I'll leave it to the real sapsucker experts like Frank to make a call
on something that falls in the field of their years of expertise, I just
thought it would be helpful to remember that there can be very strange
variants of a bird without the species being different. I'd seen only
typical mallards for years, of course even before I got into birding, and
then this past fall I bumped into one wild leucistic individual. Even with
leucistic individuals being quite regular, it took a long time for me to
happen into one. With some variations that are far rarer, it could take much
longer for an observer to find one even in the species' normal territory.
Nonetheless, I think that the possibility is important to consider when also
weighing the equally rare possibility of a vagrant bird. Many birders will
typically look at the possibility of an odd, in-species variation when also
looking at the option of a vagrant bird. Quite often the possibility ends up
being a reality in the eyes of more seasoned birders than myself who can
more confidently make a nuanced ID call like this one.

Great birding,


On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:48 PM, Marlene A Condon via va-bird <
<va-bird...> wrote:

> Hi Frank,
> Thanks so much for writing. I didn't know we had California birders
> on here!!!!
> I have some questions, please.
> (1) When you say that "this bird looks good for an normal adult male
> Yellow-bellied Sapsucker", are you referring to the birds in the Great
> Basin where you have surveyed for years? I have to say that the bird
> in my photo does not look like any Yb Sap I've ever seen in the east.
> So, are you saying "my" bird is from the Great Basin?
> (2) What makes you say that a Yb Sap with a red nape is not
> necessarily a hybrid? Are you saying that the Yb Sap has genes for this
> If so, could you please provide a reference for this statement?
> (3) I looked online at many photos of Yb Saps and not one showed a
> red nape. Could you please provide me with links to some pics?
> (4) Here's the link to the Cornell pic of a Red-naped male with black
> around the red. It's available to everyone (I'd thought it was in the
> pay-to-view section).
> I look forward to hearing from you!
> Sincerely,
> Marlene
> In a message dated 3/5/2018 1:00:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> <fogartyfa...> writes:
> Hi all,
> As someone who has surveyed for Red-naped Sapsucker in the Great Basin
> for years, I can feel confident saying this bird looks good for an
> normal adult male Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. Red nape patches are
> uncommon in this species but by no means unheard of or a definitive
> indication of hybrid origin. I've seen this in the field on YBSA
> several times, and seen it in photos dozens of times. The few brownish
> feathers high on the back are not atypical in adults of any species
> and not necessarily indicative of this being a Second-Year bird.
> The two most important features for distinguishing these two species,
> the latter of which was not mentioned at all in the ID, are the
> throat/malar pattern and back pattern. This bird has a typical YBSA
> throat pattern, with the red throat completely encased by a thick,
> black border. I have never seen this in hundreds of RNSA I have
> surveyed, despite being on the look out for hybrids. As an aside, I
> checked the BNA media archive for this species and all of the birds
> there lack this feature and look fine for RNSA. The back pattern of
> this bird, while not seen straight on, is extensively white and messy
> which also supports a pure YBSA. RNSA typically has less white on the
> back, with the white markings clustered into two distinct, vertical lines.
> Best,
> Frank Fogarty
> Davis, CA
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Marlene A Condon via va-bird <
> <va-bird...> wrote:
> Although I wasn't asked how I made my identification, I guess I should
> at least address what has been written here.
> Although some books make mention of Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers having
> a red nape, I have to ask, "How many people out there have ever seen
> I have been paying attention to birds for as long as I can remember,
> while growing up in the Northeast, living out west, and living in
> Virginia. Not only have I never seen a YB Sap with a red nape, but as
> far as I can tell from this list serve, neither has anyone else.
> I might point out that the suggestion that a YB Sap has a red nape
> would mean the bird must carry Red-naped genes in order to express
> that red nape, which would make the bird a hybrid, not a YB Sap.
> Regarding that black border: You can find many pictures online of
> birds identified as Red-naped Sapsuckers that were taken out west by
> people who live out west, and the birds show a fully black-enclosed
> red area. In fact. if I recall correctly, I even found such a picture
> at the Cornell Birds of North America write-up on Red-naped Sapsuckers
> (the version you pay to access).
> After looking at many, many photos, and looking up this bird and Yb
> Sap in many, many books, I have to conclude that the I.D.
> characteristics are not set in stone, as some folks claim them to be.
> In fact, considering that all of these sapsuckers were once lumped
> together as one species, it's surprising anyone would think the field
marks are that definitive.
> Sincerely,
> Marlene
> In a message dated 3/5/2018 9:40:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> <va-bird...> writes:
> Marshall,
> I also think yellow-bellied. They can occasionally have a red nape,
> and the throat is completely bordered in black.
> Marc Ribaudo
> Marc Ribaudo
> <moribaudo...>
> On Monday, March 5, 2018 Marshall Faintich via va-bird <
> <va-bird...> wrote:
> Marlene Condon posted a link to a photo of the Red-naped Sapsucker
> that she saw in Albemarle County. Although I have seen and
> photographed 100+ Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, I have only seen one
> Red-naped Sapsucker, and that was a year ago in Arizona (photos can
> been viewed on my Woodpecker photo pages:
> As I have only seen one Red-naped Sapsucker, my posting here is
> really more of a question for learning than disputing Marlene's
> identification. The photo that she posted is clearly an interesting
> bird. When I first looked at it, Yellow-bellied Sapsucker jumped into
> my mind - perhaps the gizz, or posture of the bird. But this bird
> clearly has red on its nape. So I started checking references.
> Although Sibley's hardback field guide does not state the following,
> his electronic app states for Yellow-bellied, "nape, usually white,
> occasionally red." It also states that the throat of the
> Yellow-bellied Sapsucker has "limited red with a complete black
> border" as seen in Marlene's photo, whereas the Red-naped Sapsucker's
> throat has "extensive red with incomplete black border," which is
> also the case in my photos of this species taken in Arizona.
> Additionally, Sibley's hardback guide states that the Red-naped has
> white bars in two rows on its back, and the Yellow-bellied has messy
> white bars on its back. I can't tell from the side view on Marlene's
> photo what its back really looks like. I also can't see its white
> wing bar, but that feature might be covered by breast feathers.
> So for those of you with expert knowledge of sapsuckers, is this bird
> a Red-naped or a variation of a Yellow-bellied? Either way, it's an
> interesting bird, and thanks to Marlene for posting the photo.
> ___________________________
> Marshall Faintich
> Crozet, VA
> <marshall...>
> <>
> In real life, the shortest distance between two points is never a
> straight line, so you might as well enjoy the journey !!
> ____________________________________________________________
> ________________
> _______________________
> *** You are subscribed to va-bird as <moribaudo...> If you
> wish to unsubscribe, or modify your preferences please visit
> ***
> *** You are subscribed to va-bird as
> <marlenecondon...> If you wish to unsubscribe, or modify your
> preferences please visit
> listmanager/listinfo/va-bird ***
> *** You are subscribed to va-bird as <fogartyfa...> If you wish
> to unsubscribe, or modify your preferences please visit
> ***
> *** You are subscribed to va-bird as <sheagordontiller...> If
> you wish to unsubscribe, or modify your preferences please visit
> ***
*** You are subscribed to va-bird as <kurtcapt87...> If you wish to
unsubscribe, or modify your preferences please visit ***

*** You are subscribed to va-bird as <lists...> If you wish to unsubscribe, or modify your preferences please visit ***
Join us on Facebook!